Lila Johnston: This is Lila Johnston, with Cultural Energy and I’m here with John Trudell. John, you’ve led an amazing life and I want to get to know your past and what you’ve been through to lead into what you’re doing now and what you see for the future. The U.S. Government went to great extents to stop people like yourself and other AIM members. Why was this gargantuan existence of the U.S. Government so scared of little old AIM? And like, what was it about you guys that made them so fearful?
John Trudell: I mean AIM got the biggest focus, but it was that whole activist energy that was going on in the native community at that time. What I really think it is, is say, our rebellion. Native rebellion as manifested through AIM. When you just cut right down to the bottom line of everything it was about law. See there are five types of law in America. There’s Common Law, Criminal law, Constitutional Law, Statue Law and Treaty Law. See so Treaties are laws, but most people, even Natives alright, and Americans, they drop the word Law off Treaty, so they say Treaties. See so at some point that implies that it’s not a legal, that it’s more of an ethical or moral obligation, but in reality it’s a legal responsibility that America has to the Native Tribes. Any Treaty Law agreements, because these Treaties were legal agreements made between the Tribes and the Americans. The Constitution of the United States says that the Treaties with the various Indian Tribes and the Constitution are the supreme laws of the land. The laws of the land, and see so the treaties, really according the Constitution, are part of the laws of a land just like the Constitution is. And the American government does not want anyone to understand this right because it would change the whole dynamic of everything. That was really what the cruxt of it is, because America pretends to be a nation of law, but in reality, if they violate these treaty laws then they are not a nation of laws. And for me personally, I have all that understanding that we do not live in a nation of laws. But I think that’s really why they hit us so heavy. Because this wasn’t like a civil rights movement about our civil rights. This was about our sovereign rights as human beings, and they don’t want the rest of the Americans thinking in terms of their rights as human beings, you know they want them thinking in terms of civil rights, these things can be legislated away, erased and all this and that. So we were opening up a whole legal and philosophical reality that the American government just does not want opened up.
You guys occupied Alcatraz for nineteen months. Why do you think they waited so long to step in and do things? Why do you think they let you guys go like that for so long?
As far as us being there as long as we were. When the initial landing happened the government tried to isolate the occupation by setting up these limits and saying boats couldn’t come out there and nobody could come to our assistance. But in the bay area see, people supported us, so they ran the blockade. There was too much massive public support. So the government had to back off. And they understood a reality that I think most people didn’t think in terms of, is that we were on a land base that was isolated. I mean, we didn’t have access to the mainland other than through the water. There was no economy there. No work. No, you know, it didn’t have its own natural resources. We were dependent upon them for everything. Water. We were dependent upon being able to get to the mainland in some manner or fashion to get our food, our supplies, see, so we were completely isolated, And any land base is, like a reservation. If the land base doesn’t have the economy, then the population has to disperse. That’s just the way it is. So they understood this see, so it’s just a matter of keeping us there until our numbers were reduced enough, and public attention got turned to other things, because by then it was old news and things like that. So that’s part of the reason they waited as long as they did, but before they did remove us, the removal was in June, but in May of that year they offered us a deal where they would lease us half of the island and give us two hundred and fifty thousand dollars through five different federal agencies. And we told em no we didn’t want their money. That this was about the land, and that’s what it would remain. And once they saw that even though all this time had passed and our numbers had dwindled, that we were still of the original purpose. See, they couldn’t get us to settle for money.
In respect to your wife and children. How did tragedy affect your path in life?
I mean, obviously reality changed. It changed my reality. I mean, just by what happened in a way, whoever I was a part of, the movement, all that stuff, see my reality got changed, but theirs didn’t. Not really. See so I was no longer in the same dimension or reality with everybody. I was on my own. And it was at that time that I knew this activist political activist thing is done. I mean, I think the effectiveness of it for us was done. And it was done for me. Because I had been separated dimensionally, if this makes sense in a way, and I knew that I had to go through whatever, I’m just gonna call it madness. Distortion of energy. I knew I was going to have to go through it. I didn’t know if I would survive it. I didn’t know how long it would last if I did survive it, but I just knew, right, I was gone. And it was in the course of that that I started to write. I started to write maybe in the fall of seventy nine, or by eighty, I knew this was a direction for me to go. With the writings. And that took me into the music, and you know, took me on stage with a band, performance and things like that. But it’s just something that kind of happened. A transition, it was made, I had no plan. I just kind of followed. Some lines were put in front of me and I started following them and they took me to these places. It changed my perception of reality. To see things differently.
So what was it like to participate in activities such as the Longest March and the BIA headquarters occupation in D.C. or the Alcatraz and Rocky Flats things? What was the atmosphere like to be with such beautiful righteous and glorious company?
Well, you know we were younger then, right, and it was an adventure. I mean, in a lot of ways we put our physical bodies on the line for what it is we believed in at that time. You know and there was not a lot of thought about consequences. Or you know, it was the righteousness so to speak of the cause. So it’s some of the best times I remember. I mean, there were hard times in there, but it was some of the best times because see we were actually an idealistic energy in motion and we were a part of a community. You know that the community might be our local community. But you could go anywhere seeing that communities there. And so it was, you know, it was cool.
What exactly was it about organized activism and politics that made you want to leave? What was its defect?
Well, one of the things during the seventies, I identified myself as a political activist, you know, and then after things changed, I understood I was limiting my view of reality because as a political activist, I could only perceive reality as a political activist, and maybe I should be perceiving reality as a human being. See, so maybe I should–my identity is, I’m a human being, I am not a political activist. That’s not my identity. I’m not an artist or a poet, that’s not my identity, my identity is I’m a human being, and these are things I may do, alright, so looking at the idea as a political activist. I’m not seeing as we, me, we, we’re not recognizing reality as it should be recognized. We’re limiting our view. Now that’s that part of it. And the other part is, I don’t trust anybody’s politics. I don’t trust politics, you know, and because the reality of politics is politics is aggressive by nature, and politics is territorial. Politics evolves party lines. And what we need is we need collectivity and collaboration and cooperation based upon some form of consensus. See and politics doesn’t operate that way. In the end what politics is about, whoever’s the most aggressive will get their way and that’s how it works and it’s very devisive because everybody has to fight and quarrel over their ways. I mean look in our own community. See, once the Americans introduced their politics into our community, I mean reality, look what it’s like in our communities the political activities that go on. But prior to that, before these IRA’s, these things that were imposed upon us alright, we had a collective way of doing things, and there wasn’t this kind of dissension and devisiveness in the tribe. Well that same reality applies whether it’s to communities that are politically active or it’s the political system itself. So the political system is designed in such a way alright, to create disharmony.
And in your travels, in the past and now, have you ever met with a seemingly heartless politician or power person and actually gained access to their heart and talked to them on a very human level?
They’re reptilians. Cold blooded. They’re reptillions, I’m telling you. Cold blooded, see I’ve met people as you’re describing, that I could get along with. I actually kinda liked them, right, but I know they’re reptilians right, that there’s a certain part of their core that means they’re not going to do the thing that needs to be done because it needs to be done, they will do the thing that needs to be done for them. That’s why they have chosen that identity. It’s reality see, but I don’t trust any of them.
Moving more into the present now, you say a large part of what’s wrong with modern society is our value system. What is this you speak of?
We live in an industrial reality now. This industrial, religious, economic, military, civilizing process. One of things that seems to be a result of it is they turn us from human beings into citizens, victims. and in the process of that turning us, we get disconnected from recognizing our own spiritual reality. And that’s what I mean by lack of values. Because if we don’t understand our own spiritual reality, we are spirits. If we don’t understand our own being, then we’ve become disconnected and then once that disconnection takes place, there really are no values. Because values to me, individual values lead to collective values. Value is in our spirituality, our spiritual relationship to life alright, and because that manifests in how we live with life. The earth. Our environment. All of these things. We’re losing that value.
Some say that by engaging with one’s enemy, and even just by acknowledging it, one is strengthening it. What is your take on this philosophy?
Everything, in a way, is about energy. So when we engage with our enemy, if they can provoke us into engagement, then they’re dominating our energy, so we’re feeding our energy to them. But I think acknowledging it is in our best interest. And I don’t think that they can just feed off of our energy just because we acknowledge that they’re there. If we acknowledge that they’re there and it causes us to now participate on the basis of fear, then yes, it’s dangerous to acknowledge them even. But to acknowledge a thing is to recognize it, see it for what it is, and then make our decisions based upon that. Right, too many times we engage with our enemy, but we don’t really see it for what it really is, because it keeps winning. See so that tells me we don’t really see it for what it really is, because if we saw it for what it really is, it can’t win because it’s all about energy.
And you’re such a badass. You know, you’re such an independent activist who goes by his own will, and this is to say that you confront your enemies without that facade of professionalism and civilized debate. Is it hard to gain respect for your cause and simultaneously burn down flags and speak so freely with a cigarette in your hand? Is it hard? Have you struggled with that? Trying to gain respect at all?
I am who I am. And people respect it or they don’t. Because people have a problem with me. If I make their problem my problem, right, that doesn’t make sense to me, because their problem is me. So if I make their problem my problem, I become my own problem. It’s just too confusing. That would drive me nuts. Or even burning the flag. See I’m a veteran. What I learned as a part of being a veteran, that when the flag is desecrated, the only way you can properly dispose of it is to burn it. And going back earlier to what I’m saying, that America says it’s a nation of laws, but it’s not. Alright, and because it’s not that’s the desecration of the flag. Genocide, racism, class systems, kids can’t get health insurance, the whole thing that’s going on, that is a desecration of the flag because they say the flag represents something else. So when I burned that flag, I did it because it is being desecrated and people either get it or they don’t, I mean to me, so any of these things that I have done I learned a long time ago, I just got to be me, you know, and if people can handle it, they can handle it.
You keep saying a lot of times we need to use our intelligence to make change, and all you really want is for people to think. What do you mean? Are people not thinking?
No, we don’t live in a society of thinking people, because if we did, we wouldn’t be in the mess that we’re in. People are believing. Think about this. Just in the course of your life, as you go around, how many times you hear people say I believe this, I believe that. Versus, I think. You’re gonna hear I believe ninety per cent of the time, and maybe you’ll hear I think ten percent of the time.
And what’s the difference between believing and thinking?
Thinking is you’re open. Thinking is thinking. Thinking just is. Believing is like taking thinking and putting it in a box. It’s a crucial huge difference. Alright, how bad can you make yourself feel with your fears, your doubts and insecurities? And how does this affect people around you? That’s the power of your intelligence being used incoherently. Now, if that same power was being used coherently think of what we could create. See we could create a whole different reality when we are believing all these bears and doubts and insecurities in making ourselves feel bad. See so we’ve been programmed in a way to believe that believing is thinking, but it’s really not, and by programming us to believe that believing is thinking, they are using the power and energy of our thinking, changing it into believing and feeding it into their system, and therefore we can’t change their system. See the political protesters can’t change it because they believe, they’re not thinking, they’re acting on what they believe, they’re emotionally reacting to what they believe. But they believe believing is thinking.
I see, I see. Along with many others, I am a progressive person about to enter college, about to enter this new era of catastrophe, perhaps some think. What do you think is the most effective way to use a college education, and to use my time in the societal education system, for the good?
Respect the power of your intelligence, and use it as clearly and coherently as you possibly can. Think. Think. Think. You know, because part of what that whole higher education institution, it is to program us to believe in the system. But the deal is, but we make the decision see because all this is information and knowledge that can be very practical and useful to us, if we look at it, recognize well this is what it is. These are tools I’m picking up and somewhere in the course of my life I may need to use some of these tools. So it’s good to know and understand the tools, but I’m not giving them my intelligence. I’m not going to give them my mind. I’m gonna keep that for me. And then recognize these tools, because what you learn, a lot of it is knowledge about the system. Them. Right, but unfortunately most people that go into it, they end up believing in that right. And I am saying, recognize that it’s there and that all the chaos that exists now is a result of that being there and in how people handle it once they get the information. Think for yourself. It’ll spread. See, the more sense you may–you know, it’s like when you’re depressed and feel bad and it affects the people around you. The more sense that you make will affect the people around you.
So, Mister Trudell. How exactly and pragmatically do you propose that we turn this boat around and get these men and women out of power?
Pragmatically we have to accept this is an evolutionary process, an evolutionary reality that we’re in, so that it’s going to take some time. Alright? There are no revolutionary solutions, only evolutionary solutions. Because the revolutionary solution is a part of the oppressor class’s illusion that things are changing. The evolutionary solution is the reality. We’re part of an evolutionary reality, so that’s the reality. So whatever we’re confronted with, evolutionary solutions. And to me what I consider to be pragmatic and practical, that we have to recognize that we’re human beings and that our power in this reality is in that identity of being a human being. This is our power. Is in the identity of being a human being. You know human, physical, being. It’s physical, but it’s energy. We can’t see it alright, but we are human beings and our relationship to power comes in that identity in our understanding of that identity. As human beings we were given intelligence, and see, through how we use the intelligence is how we manifest the power of our being. And I think we have to recognize that about ourselves. And if it’s one person at a time, see but if one person at a time starts making these recognitions, it spreads. Because just like the depression can affect the people. This can affect. Because it’s all about power. And I think that we need to start recognizing that we’re human beings and start thinking like human beings. Everybody has some one they pray to, almost everybody has someone they pray to, alright. But to me I don’t understand how we can pray to who we pray to and not give them thanks for our intelligence. See, I don’t understand how we can pray to who we pray to and show them true respect if we don’t respect our intelligence. Because this is what they gave us to be able to manifest and participate as human beings. I know a lot of people are praying, but they’re just saying the words. It’s almost, you know, the respect is gone. I mean, a certain understanding of the respect is gone. Alright and because when we look at, we want to talk about the bad guys and all this, that, alright. Well part of the reason the bad guys can exist is because we’re not fulfilling the responsibility our creator gave us.
Our potential, would you say?
Our potential, because our creator gave us intelligence, and this is how we manifest the use of our power, our energy alright, and we’re not taking responsibility. We were given the gift of intelligence, to go with the gift of life, to be able to live life, but we’re not taking responsibility in using that power and gift of our intelligence in a responsible way. So see, we’ve got the convenience of bad guys to blame. If this change doesn’t take place, we’re not going to change anything.
What types of projects are you working on now? What’s going on? What are you doing to make the world a better place personally?
I’m releasing the new CD called Madness and The Mormes, which we’re selling on the Internet, and I plan on starting work on another album sometime this fall. And then I’m working on this campaign Give Love, Give life. And we’re not an organization, we’re more of a thought, consciousness, names, idea like that. What we’re attempting is to raise awareness in this country actually. We are looking at national health care insurance for the women and children of America. The citizens don’t seem to want national health insurance bad enough. Everybody’s health insurance situation gets worse and worse. This applies to a lot of tribes too, because people just think because Indians have public health that you know, but in some areas natives should have an option, and so we’re looking at the women and children because our feeling is that you know, I don’t think our culture is a culture if they don’t look out for the women and children first. To me it isn’t a culture, if they won’t do that. Every culture, every culture that’s a culture does that, alright. And when they won’t do that anymore, they’re like, it’s like believing rather than thinking. They’re an illusion of a culture, and so working on this campaign now to just see how much awareness we can raise around this issue during this next election cycle. So what we’re recommending the people is to say to the political system, the candidates and the Congress, to say to them, look, we support national health insurance for women and children and we will support a plan that makes sense, but we’re not going to support a candidate or a party at this time. We’ll support the plan. So whoever brings the plan, that’s what we will support. So we are trying to encourage that idea.
If you had one more thing to say to this new generation, this new and growing generation of conscious youth, what would it be?
Don’t believe them, they’re lying. They’re all lying. The political system is lying. The military system is lying. The economic system, the religious systems, they’re all lying. And the real danger here is that some of them know they’re lying, and some of them don’t know. They’re lying to themselves so that their lies can become the truth. But they’re all lying because they don’t have a clear coherent grasp of reality and a spiritual reality that we’re a part of. You’ll hear a lot of words and terminology, but you know, just be careful who you believe. Think more, believe less.
Thank you so much, John. ~